tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post5895815987202212848..comments2024-01-17T16:15:59.682-05:00Comments on Another gay Jew: Letters/ReactionsEly Winklerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14816825030719694334noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-49432703402964809412010-01-03T15:26:34.941-05:002010-01-03T15:26:34.941-05:00This event is definitely something that YU Adminis...This event is definitely something that YU Administration should be concerned about. It creates awareness. It tells the frum world all over: "There are gay students in YU and we're tolerant and open to it." <br /><br />I truly believe that any frum Jew- Modern or yeshivish- will not hesitate to send their children to this institution because of its' openness and acceptance to the gay community.<br /><br />I think that it was very appropriate to have this event. I have friends in the community whom are gay and this event truly helped me understand the struggle that they have to go through day in and day out. <br /><br />Ely, I don't get why you're so annoyed at the administration/ authorities for their reaction. They are trying to keep a positive name for themselves in the frum community. They don't want to lose their clientele. Why's that something that's so difficult for you to understand? It's called "damage control" and as a respectable institution YU must constantly maintain their good name and Orthodox reputation. <br /><br />Look at Chovevei Torah. They are so open-minded and liberal that the chareidi wold opened up against them labeling them "NOT Orthodox" and trashing Rabbi Avi Weiss for his open-mindedness and hugging the kallah's mother under the chuppah, etc. YU I believe is scared of losing it's frum name. That's all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-20892065488064077932009-12-31T20:42:48.870-05:002009-12-31T20:42:48.870-05:00Some people, believe it or not, don't have Fac...Some people, believe it or not, don't have Facebook...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-82090836022437881142009-12-31T13:33:17.072-05:002009-12-31T13:33:17.072-05:00With that epic 50th comment, I declare this Blog c...With that epic 50th comment, I declare this Blog conversation over. and Mordechai- AMAZING.FrumGaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-44395876951404255142009-12-31T07:52:02.065-05:002009-12-31T07:52:02.065-05:00Point by point, critique, response and rebuttal of...Point by point, critique, response and rebuttal of Rav Twersky's speech. (by one of the YU panel members)<br /><br />go to link: <br /><br />http://www.facebook.com/notes/zac-mordechai-levovitz/point-by-point-critique-response-and-rebuttal-of-rav-twerskys-speech-by-one-of-t/251912628922Mordechai Levovitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-90437197098611104492009-12-31T01:36:18.544-05:002009-12-31T01:36:18.544-05:00It seems as though Carmela and YU have the same fe...It seems as though Carmela and YU have the same feelings:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyRPmMi1MioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-58094053968992244782009-12-30T21:44:26.463-05:002009-12-30T21:44:26.463-05:00Don't be so discouraging. It doesn't have ...Don't be so discouraging. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and it isn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-15663520172111204232009-12-30T20:02:54.015-05:002009-12-30T20:02:54.015-05:00Again I agree with Jewish Atheist - you are correc...Again I agree with Jewish Atheist - you are correct, the Yeshiva probably indeed does NOT want you or any other "troublemakers." I really feel for you, it is incredibly hard to feel like you want to belong to the group but that at the same time you will always be outside it, and in this case for a reason that is beyond your control. But the facts are the facts - the torah does prohibit gay sex (though I never saw any prohibition of a gay relationship without that...) and so the Yeshiva for some reason will continue to see (incorrectly) any homosexuality as promoting something that the torah expressly forbids...Such a shame that this has to be this way...It still amazes me that people really believe this stuff...Things like homosexuality being abnormal or pereverse...But the sad truth is that the majority orthodox opinion is unlikely to change. Hence you are still faced with the same decision that you raised a few posts ago: To live contrary to the demands of a medeival book, or to give in and go along with it and hope for the best...I don't envy you..Tough Choicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-19244447095930003182009-12-30T16:07:41.415-05:002009-12-30T16:07:41.415-05:00To the author -
I dont know how closely you foll...To the author - <br /><br />I dont know how closely you follow the orthodox jewish media but its very realistic to say that a huge chillul Hashem was caused in the orthodox community when word got out that YU hosted a panel on homosexulaity in the orthodox world. As Rav Twersky so eloquently put it, regardless of the greatest intentions the organizers and those involved might have had, the reality remains that the larger orthodox world took it to mean that YESHIVA university supported the event and possibly the homosexual lifestyle. Given this fact which can be seen on various websites and comments found there (regardless if bigoted or not, these types of events only stoke the flames)something had to be done in order to send a very strong message that the institution does not support the event that took place and that issues like these should be dealt with in a different fashion. <br /><br />and yes... it seems as the yeshiva has turned its back on you because of public relations pressure, but the reality is that no matter the positive that came out of the panel event, it could have been done differently with the guidance of the roshei yeshiva and had a very similar if not the same affect.<br /><br />and if you claim it wouldnt... then either people came to be voyeuristic, for the hock, or just dont care about the torah aspect of this issue which doesnt belong on campus when issues like these are discussed.<br /><br />keep blogging... as you see your doing a fantastic job and giving people a small glimpse into your very real struggle!DBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16806701543173511556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-56931426381567806272009-12-30T10:46:28.263-05:002009-12-30T10:46:28.263-05:00Anon 11:02:
Ayein Pesachim daf 3, and try not to ...Anon 11:02:<br /><br />Ayein Pesachim daf 3, and try not to question roshei yeshiva until you know what you're talking about.<br /><br />And "hate speech"? Please.<br /><br />[I made a mistake with the marei makom, so I re-posted.]nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07673099548876125906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-66838724320232259082009-12-30T10:38:28.130-05:002009-12-30T10:38:28.130-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.nobodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07673099548876125906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-8892351410563323232009-12-30T10:16:01.595-05:002009-12-30T10:16:01.595-05:00Rav Twersky, speaking for kavod shemaya, said that...Rav Twersky, speaking for kavod shemaya, said that what is appropriate is for gay Jews to talk to their Rov. How many gay Jews will feel comfortable talking to him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-22515485080687215742009-12-30T09:59:39.515-05:002009-12-30T09:59:39.515-05:00This controversy has grown to humongous proportion...This controversy has grown to humongous proportions. We all have to take a step back. This is what I think the basic arguments are. The Roshei Yeshivah are saying that the event was inappropriate because it sent the message (whether implicitly or explicitly) that we are legitimizing an inappropriate identity. It sent a message that we are legitimizing the identification of a person who has a homosexual orientation as a "gay jew". The tolerance club is either arguing that the event did not do that, or that even if the event did that, the positives outweighed the negatives, or that the legitimization is a wonderful thing.<br /><br />everyone agrees that homosexuality is an issue at yu, and that the issue needs to be addressed. Everyone agrees that we need compassion, sympathy, and due tolerance. No one is preaching bigotry, hate, and intolerance.<br /><br />We have to reach a compromise. We need representatives of the tolerance club to meet with R' Reiss, and talk and talk and talk until something can be worked, that will fix as much of the damage that can possibly be fixed, and to promote all the positive ideals that need to be promoted in an appropriate, halachick, and haskafick fashion. If we keep on fighting and pointing fingers this will lead to a huge schism between the right and left of the modern (or centrist or whatever you wanna call it) orthodox world that will be good for no one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-72997791790357777842009-12-30T02:02:26.429-05:002009-12-30T02:02:26.429-05:00At first I thought that this event was a watershed...At first I thought that this event was a watershed, that really demonstrated the support for the struggle that frum gays were enduring. In retrospect now, I think that it may have been a mistake. The people that attended were already supporters of those in struggle and didnt need the event to convince them. Those whose minds should've been affected, didnt bother to attend. But it did galvanize the opposition. It promoted hate speech in the Beit Medrash and who knows how many students the Roshei Yeshiva have now affected with such intolerance. <br /> I find it curiously disenheartening that the Roshei Yeshiva invoked chilul hashem and a pgam on the keshuda of the yeshiva for publicly discussing sex, yet no sex was discussed at the event. My days learning in the yeshiva about bi'ya explicitly in the gemara and how many time a man is chayav for penetrating himself goes way beyond any unsniut talk of sexuality that may have occurred at the event. The dishonesty on display with such invocations is utterly heart-rending. <br />In a brisker institution that will argue away the most minute points of halacha to just paint homosexuality and homosexual relationships with broad brush strokes is yet another example of the Roshei Yeshiva's disingenuous prejudice. Do all "homosexual acts" fall under the rubric of mischav zachar? What exactly is a "homosexual relationship?" If they were truly interested in maintaining the dignity and kedusha of the yeshiva and of Torah, such open and honestly exploratory conversations would be welcomed, not shunned.Yet another fum gay jewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-58815524906512505412009-12-30T01:08:17.707-05:002009-12-30T01:08:17.707-05:00I love Ely Winkler ;)I love Ely Winkler ;)Alananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-47256940788061215012009-12-29T23:57:08.820-05:002009-12-29T23:57:08.820-05:00The PR was the letter from the PRESIDENT. the Rosh...The PR was the letter from the PRESIDENT. the Roshei Yeshiva, and I have discussed this with over 5 administrators at YU are talking just from their own views. Not from or for the Yeshiva.<br /><br />And anon 5:59, "what right do i have to say that it's not a chilul hashem?" How about the right that this is MY blog? How about the right that I have as an INDIVIDUAL to have my own thoughts and opinions, and state them? I respect their opinions but I am entitled to my own and to queston theirs.FrumGayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06793265192431165211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-4108995417359128932009-12-29T23:29:08.843-05:002009-12-29T23:29:08.843-05:00Additionally, if you heard the Rebbeim speak, the ...Additionally, if you heard the Rebbeim speak, the passion in their voice, it was truly coming from their hearts. This was not a facade, this was not for PR. They were being absolutely genuine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-77465507174688632512009-12-29T22:54:57.125-05:002009-12-29T22:54:57.125-05:00First of all, I have a much higher regard for the ...First of all, I have a much higher regard for the Roshei Yeshiva than that, and those who argue are trying to rationalize the fact that their views don't sit well with them additionally. Additionally, YU has no positive image at all in the yeshivish velt, and nothing they can do will fix that. They just alieneted the left wing. If they were worried about pr, this was the absolute worst thing they could do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-7187068788500864372009-12-29T22:45:54.240-05:002009-12-29T22:45:54.240-05:00They are not only concerned about what G-d wants. ...They are not only concerned about what G-d wants. PR, public image, concerns them as much or more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-19426517425552526442009-12-29T22:28:27.423-05:002009-12-29T22:28:27.423-05:00quest
that's exactly my point. It's hard ...quest<br /><br />that's exactly my point. It's hard to know what G-d wants. I don't. When I am unsure, I go to people who know more Torah than me. Who know more of G-d's word than I do. The Roshei Yeshiva know more about what G-d wants than any student in YU. Can they be wrong? Can they make mistakes? of course! Everyone makes mistakes, including the Roshei Yeshiva. But if a Rosh Yeshiva says this is not what G-d wants, and I say it is what G-d wants, I'm gonna go with the odds and say the Rosh Yeshiva probably has a more accurate assessment than I do or you do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-43916922143299676742009-12-29T22:18:47.110-05:002009-12-29T22:18:47.110-05:00To December 29, 2009 5:59PM
"this may not be ...To December 29, 2009 5:59PM<br />"this may not be what Hashem wanted?" You know what God wants? Please.Questnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-46377663319758430112009-12-29T22:03:22.413-05:002009-12-29T22:03:22.413-05:00The Rambam considers Jews merely knowing of a deva...The Rambam considers Jews merely knowing of a devar aveira done by other Jews a chillul Hashem. But, to be fair to the intelligent people whose pain we cannot know, who can speak to these issues more pointedly than any guest, as was made clear, the purpose of the forum wasn't to justify aveiros, but acknowledgement of reality, and an attempt to battle homophobia.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-66501162505559019012009-12-29T20:59:12.985-05:002009-12-29T20:59:12.985-05:00I am trying to formulate this with as much sensiti...I am trying to formulate this with as much sensitivty as I possibly can, though I am finding difficulty. If I sound harsh, please forgive me, I mean this with the utmost respect and admiration of someone fighting a battle that I cannot possibly relate to.<br /><br />If a person is ill, and doesn't know what to do, he goes to an expert, a doctor and asks him what to do. If a person has legal issues, and doesn't know what to do, he goes to an expert, a lawyer, and asks him what to do. If a person has a halachic issue or a hashkafic issue, he goes to an expert, a knowlegebale Rav, and asks him what to do. <br /><br />You had an idea for an event to promote tolerance, and you wanted to do it in a halachic and hashkafic acceptable fashion. The Roshei Yeshiva are coming out and saying it was the exact opposite, it was a chilul Hashem. You may be uncomfortable with that, maybe even feel a little guilty, but under what authority can you say that "you don't see why it was a chilul Hashem?" If a person goes to a doctor and the doctor say he has cancer, and the patient says "but I don't see the tumor" and leaves, you would react with shock. So as difficult as the reality is that the event was not as haskafically acceptable as you thought, that this may not be what Hashem wanted, how could you honestly argue with an expert? Under what authority?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-64054765739905432782009-12-29T18:52:56.242-05:002009-12-29T18:52:56.242-05:00One of my favorite quotes from another person who ...One of my favorite quotes from another person who suffered for his faith, Thomas Latimer. <br /><br />Be of good cheer and play the Man, Master Ridley; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England that shall never be put out! <br /><br />Take comfort because you are a good person and things will get better. Somehow, good does have a habit of winning against evil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-85666900345029474532009-12-29T17:38:33.026-05:002009-12-29T17:38:33.026-05:00I apologize if my comments hurt you. Too many have...I apologize if my comments hurt you. Too many have done that to you already.<br /><br />I'm sincerely sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1928387059735958551.post-53815201229180790302009-12-29T15:45:39.854-05:002009-12-29T15:45:39.854-05:00The Roshei Yeshiva pressured the Shiur. The admini...The Roshei Yeshiva pressured the Shiur. The administration did not want it to happen, R' Twersky insisted on giving the lecture. <br />I really don't see how the controversy is a Chillul Hashem.<br />And do me a favor, when you comment on MY blog- don't tell me I'm causing pain. And dont you DARE tell me you share my pain. You cannot even begin to imagine my pain.FrumGaynoreply@blogger.com