Saturday, January 2, 2010


...Does not equal Legitimization
Awareness does not equal sanction
Acceptance does not equal legalization.

I'm disappointed in those who don't understand saying that me finally feeling like the community wants me as a part of it, means the community is telling me that what I do is okay. That is not the case, nor should it ever be the case, but that's what people are saying. Important people, respected people.

And one more thing, being a gay Jew doesn't have to be it's own category. I don't want to be separate from the rest of the Jewish world. But if I am rejected from being an orthodox Jew, maybe I'll have to just be a gay Jew.

And shout out to everyone who has helped me through the past few weeks. I love you guys.


  1. who is arguing with you about ANY of this??? I think everyone in the world would agree with you!!

  2. "Important people, Respected People" want to be important, respected people. The people they get respect from don't show respect when they are perceived supporting the gay lifestyle. This is what most people think of when they hear the word "gay" - not sexual angst, hidden, the cruelty of living and spreading lies, but flamboyant behavior.

    Aside from men holding hands not being their experience, pride parades create images not easily forgotten of in your face excess. They reject this and aren't sympathetic. You as an individual are another matter. The people who know and respect you base their opinions on substance, you. Everyone else is judging based upon the ways the gay liberation movement has promoted itself in the media. True or false?

  3. If being a gay jew isn't a separate category, why do you have a blog as one; you decided to make the category, they are simply upset that people find it acceptable to categorize themselves by issurim they have trouble with.

  4. Very interesting Anon 1:14. While I agree my blog is categorizing myself as a "gay Jew" I feel it is important just for the sake of the blog, I do not carry myself as that person every day, it's just my focus for the discussions here.

  5. What does 'Acceptance' mean?
    Does it mean to understand that there are gay individuals that are students in YU- because I think everyone even R' Reiss and president Joel understand that and always have.

    So, what does acceptance mean to you?
    And what makes you feel that there is not acceptance?

  6. I think this is something that has been said for year and, unfortunately, is likely to be said for years to come. "It's sad to see, in this day and age, that people are still acting this way".

    Then again, I would guess that the people who would prefer to shun and fight at every step are saying the same thing.

  7. Snoopy > People who are 'shun and fight'ing what?

    legitimization or acceptance?
    and what is the difference between them?

  8. I think it's the idea that compassion is missing from the dialogue. Mordechai L's story made me cry, a 14 year old boy was called "evil." How about not making your lives worse? Stopping people from using gay as an insult? How about showing support and love and say "I don't know what to do, but I'm here for you." It doesn't negate the Torah, it doesn't negate Halacha, but just being a friend and listening and hearing is all I think you're asking for. And it's terrible you're denied it.

  9. FrumGay; But the Roshei Yeshiva would say that the categorization is inherently wrong, because it implies the acceptability of the issur. No one would deny that people do issurim all the time; the definition of a Mumar is one who says that the act is wrong, but they cannot stop themselves. Those are people that cannot be included in the Jewish community; we are explicitly forbidden from bringing sacrifices on their behalf in the Beis Hamikdash, and some rishonim say they may not even be counted toward a minyan.

    If calling one's self a "Gay Jew," even in a narrow context, is admitting such a status, how could the administration and Roshei Yeshiva not be opposed? And if it is not that, what is it?

  10. A mummar le-teavon is on the slippery slope because once they do an aveiro, davar echad, repeatedly they become a mummar le-hachit. As if the world is so perfect? Get real.

    The question how can you expect the roshei yeshiva to look bad in the eyes of their peers in the yeshiva world is valid in context.

    FrumGay's goal is compassion. He doesn't want to lose his place in the Orthodox community, and we don't want to lose him either. The roshei yeshiva have to know what isolation, loneliness, guilt, and despair feels like before rushing to judgement. This problem affects some of our best and brightest.

  11. Hi Frumgay,
    While I sympathize with your situation, and the difficulties that you face, I don't view the disapproval of public forums such as the one described above as automatically translating into "intolerance."

    Particularly in the realm of discussing sexual topics, there is a long-standing reticence in the religious Jewish community to discuss these topics in a mass forum. Taking the example, for instance, of sex education--many traditional Jewish communities will relegate these discussions to private discussions that occur between parents/learned individuals, and prospective brides and grooms during their engagement period. At least part of the fear is that open discussion of these issues, particularly in a mixed setting, can lead to an immodest treatment of these topics by attendees. Personal questions, additionally, cannot be easily asked and responded to, in a public forum.

    There of course are valid counterarguments: (1) assuming the homosexual inclination results from "hard-wiring," why should public discussion of homosexuality increase immodest behavior (at least amongst heterosexuals? (A reasonable argument, but not one I'm entirely convinced of, for reasons I can articulate later) (2) the degree of sadness and alienation felt by most gay orthodox Jews needs to be addressed aggressively--i.e. in a public manner, to hopefully decrease a sense of alienation from the religious Jewish community (3) public forums are necessary as a form of "rebuke" to heterosexuals that behave in a cruel or unsympathetic fashion to Jews who are forced to contend with these feelings. You can probably think of more counterarguments, although #2 and #3 are of greatest concern to me.

    What I'm saying is that, there are valid concerns regarding such public forums that do not necessarily come from a place of intolerance or hostility towards Jews with homosexual inclinations. I do not claim to know which is the best approach, but community leaders in particular are often faced with having to responsibly mediate between dualing concerns such as those mentioned above.


It Gets Better- Gay Orthodox Jews