Hey, I would like to clarify a point I've made in the past, but that doesn't seem to be sticking with my readers.
I'm not obsessed with marriage. I discuss it so often because it comes up so often. My society, the Orthodox Jewish community is obsessed with (heteronormative) marriage, so I feel the need to discuss it fairly often. Thankfully, I have learned how to have a good outlook and stay positive about the issue although it comes up almost daily how a man should marry a woman.
Now, for most of my life I have been a very black-and-white person. Things were either one way or the other, with little room for gray area in between. I have tried to avoid that behavior and leave room for new ideas in my life, but I don't always succeed. I'm open to hearing that the only way for me to be happy is to give up being religious or to give up being gay. However, I promise you I've thought about it. I promise you I've gone through the motions of giving up one or the other- and neither makes sense to me. I know you might not understand my desire to remain religious, and I don't understand it so clearly either, but I know it's right for me. I also know it's right for me to be gay. So there they are- two areas that conflict. A black and a white. So I chose the gray.
Two years ago a friend came to me, struggling, wondering what he should do with the struggle of religion and homosexuality. We discussed the options and he said- "but if I come out, I have to give up my Frumkeit, (religiousness) and I can't do that." Suddenly it dawned on me. Who said so? Who said that if you are homosexual you have to give up religion and who says if you're religious you have to give up homosexuality? God says certain things, the laws and their interpretations says certain things, society says certain things but why can't I say something for myself? There had to be another option, I couldn't pick one or the other. So two weeks later I came out of the closet and chose the third option- to be a Frum gay Jew.
I'm not obsessed with marriage. I discuss it so often because it comes up so often. My society, the Orthodox Jewish community is obsessed with (heteronormative) marriage, so I feel the need to discuss it fairly often. Thankfully, I have learned how to have a good outlook and stay positive about the issue although it comes up almost daily how a man should marry a woman.
Now, for most of my life I have been a very black-and-white person. Things were either one way or the other, with little room for gray area in between. I have tried to avoid that behavior and leave room for new ideas in my life, but I don't always succeed. I'm open to hearing that the only way for me to be happy is to give up being religious or to give up being gay. However, I promise you I've thought about it. I promise you I've gone through the motions of giving up one or the other- and neither makes sense to me. I know you might not understand my desire to remain religious, and I don't understand it so clearly either, but I know it's right for me. I also know it's right for me to be gay. So there they are- two areas that conflict. A black and a white. So I chose the gray.
Two years ago a friend came to me, struggling, wondering what he should do with the struggle of religion and homosexuality. We discussed the options and he said- "but if I come out, I have to give up my Frumkeit, (religiousness) and I can't do that." Suddenly it dawned on me. Who said so? Who said that if you are homosexual you have to give up religion and who says if you're religious you have to give up homosexuality? God says certain things, the laws and their interpretations says certain things, society says certain things but why can't I say something for myself? There had to be another option, I couldn't pick one or the other. So two weeks later I came out of the closet and chose the third option- to be a Frum gay Jew.
Hello FrumGay,
ReplyDelete"I'm open to hearing that the only way for me to be happy is to give up being religious or to give up being gay.":
It is not so much about what makes you happier, but really what is true. Sometimes what is true will not make you happier. However, in this case it will. Do you not think that if you were born in Texas you would probably be a Christian instead? So is it not the case that religion, for the overwhelming most part, is an accident of geography. Why would you let an accident of geography ruin a life you could (and deserve) to be living?
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ReplyDelete<3
ReplyDeleteOk I am always hearing such negative comments down here regarding religion. Yes there is a conflict here and religion doesn't always give you such an easy time. And I know I don't speak for our entire religion, but we love you, don't leave us.
ReplyDeleteBaruch, we can make the same "truth" argument. Just because you would have been of a different faith if born somewhere else doesn't mean Judaism isn't true. All it means is that if you're Jewish, you need to prove it to yourself for your Jewishness to be any more meaningful than the average Christian's Christianity.
ReplyDeleteFrumGay's choice, I think is healthy. I don't think it should be permanent, but I give it a tremendous amount of respect. Where many would chose to go off the derech because they feel like they can't reconcile homosexual feelings with Judaism, FrumGay has chosen to hold on to whatever he can, and not to give up any ground. That's a tremendous feat.
Knowing the truth is one thing, and living it is another. Because living it is so hard, people chose not to redefine their actions so that their actions line up with truth, but instead, they redefine truth, so that this new truth can line up with their raw, unrefined, desires and actions. Frumgay, although maybe he hasn't succeeded at aligning his actions with what he perceives as true (Orthodox Judaism), he'd rather be slightly failing at living the truth, than compromise his integrity by refining truth.
<---In awe.
FG,
ReplyDeleteI have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that "...the Orthodox Jewish community is obsessed with (heteronormative) marriage..." because I believe it is YOU who has the obsession with the Orthodox community's interests and cultural activities. Which is understandable, considering that you consider yourself Orthodox, and considering that you were raised in an Orthodox home, but nonetheless...the Orthodox world is not "obsessed" with marriage, heteronormative or otherwise. But as with most things in life, human nature is such that the issues that are most important to us seems that much more glaring in the world around us. So I daresay the "obsession" with marriage lies more within you, and the quote-unquote "Orthodox community" shouldn't be indicted for having any kind of "obsession" with marriage.
Respectfully-
"Baruch, we can make the same "truth" argument. Just because you would have been of a different faith if born somewhere else doesn't mean Judaism isn't true.":
ReplyDeleteI had Orthodox Jewish beliefs in my point in my life. I stopped believing in them when I thought about this question very carefully and for a long enough time. It is interesting that religion is, for the overwhelming part, determined by people's geography. The family you are born determined your religion. But disbelief and atheism does not work that way. Most people who show up at atheist meetings were at one point religious in their lives. Atheism is free from this geographical religious invariant.
"Because living it is so hard, people chose not to redefine their actions so that their actions line up with truth, but instead, they redefine truth, so that this new truth can line up with their raw, unrefined, desires and actions.":
Or maybe he realized that what you say is true is actually not true, so he adjusts himself to what he actually thinks is correct.
Well he obviously believs in and values Jewish Orthodox ideals despite the difficulties it poses for him, so why are you encouraging him to abandon them? He is obviously an individual who has considered leaving religion and decided against it.
ReplyDeleteBaruch, Just echoing what Anon 11:52 said. It's pretty clear that he has chosen GREY, and not picked a color like you want him to.
ReplyDeleteBut that makes sense, if I were atheist, I would truly hate religion. It's gotta be awful to be a non-believer in a world full of crazy religionists.
Geography - sure. That's true. But atheists are largely people who are intellectual elitists and have major incentive to deny religions, mostly because they're bad at being religious, and because it allows them a context for which they can lord themselves over others and think that everyone else is an idiot. Just because religionists have biases doesn't meant that atheists have biases. So in the interests of honesty, perhaps both sides should discard these kinds of rhetorical argumetns.
"It's pretty clear that he has chosen GREY, and not picked a color like you want him to.":
ReplyDeleteWhat is wrong with choosing black? I call this the "moderate fallacy", the fallacy is the idea that the truth most lie between two extremes. This is sometimes true, and sometimes not.
"It's gotta be awful to be a non-believer in a world full of crazy religionists.":
It is a little awful but I have good expectations for the human species in the future. It seems to me that religion is slowly dying out in the more civilized places in the world. Even if people are still religious, they have more liberal forms of religion - which is much better than what was otherwise. So the future does not look so bad to me.
"Just because religionists have biases doesn't meant that atheists have biases.":
What is wrong with being biased? The point of what I said about religion being determined geographically is that these numbers suggest that people stick to what their initial beliefs as children were from their parents rather then figuring out their beliefs later on as they were adults.
...the "obsession" with marriage lies more within you, and the quote-unquote "Orthodox community" shouldn't be indicted for having any kind of "obsession" with marriage.
ReplyDeleteI agree AND disagree. I agree that issues important to us seem "brighter" or more intense in the world around us. I also agree that the Orthodox Jewish community is "obsessed" with marriage but...they're not the only community. Greek Orthodox ("My Big Fat Greek Wedding" anyone?) and Irish Catholic faiths are also driven to marrying off women as soon as possible. There are probably others (Roman Catholic?), but those 2 come immediately to mind.
I think you also have to consider outside factors. For starters, there's the religious aspect, but there's also a second aspect--social. I don't know how old FG is, but if it's the conventional marrying age (early to mid 20s), FG may be watching peers and/or coworkers become engaged/married and feels an intense emotional tug.
So while it's true you can't "indict" the Orthodox Jewish community, you can't limit the
"obsession" SOLELY to religion.
Judaism is opposed to shtufei zimah, gay, straight, married or not.
ReplyDeleteLust for religion, anyone?
As far as i know, being an orthodox jew for my whole life, orthodox jews keep both the Torah sh'b'ikhtav and sh'b'alpe, the Torah states and in my opinion very clearly, together with all of the forbidden marriages such as one's sibling or parent and relations with animals, the prohibition of homosexual relations (male; not going to get any deeper in this). So aside from the fact that the arayoth, forbidden marriages are Yehareg W'lo Ya'avor (one must be killed rather than transgress them) and that the Torah specificaly lists the act of homosexual relations as an abomination, how can one be a "religious orthodox jew" that doesn't keep one mitzvah in the Torah!?!
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand the point here! How is this being evaded? I am not a hater. I am not condemning gays, I am not saying that gay sex should be illegal (regardless of my personal opinion(s) ) only that within the parameters of the specific group that it seems like you are trying to call yourself apart of; homosexuality is no different than incest (except for the fact that homosexual intercourse cannot create halakhik mamzerim (bastards) but is instead a killing of shihvat zera, and I don't want to talk about the seriousness of that, it's just that since there is a heter now on a lav in the Torah, there is no reason why you should care about words of halakha, qaballah, minhag etc.)
I don't care about the fact that you are gay.
ReplyDeleteHowever, saying that you are gay and frum is like saying that you speak loshon hora and you are frum. Or that you eat treif and you are frum. Or that you talk business in shul on Shabbos and that you are frum.
Perhaps, it would be more accurate to state that you are just plain frum - period, without telling us that you are gay. Just as someone who speaks loshon hora will not be advertising that he is doing so and still frum. Same with the other aveiras mentioned.
Ultimately, no one can stop you from doing other mitzvos and rightly so. One has nothing to do with another and you should continue in Torah and mitvos. And you are entitled to call yourself anything that you want - 'frum' or otherwise.
However, it is the broadcasting of the gay lifestyle while declaring to be in a state of frumkeit which causes me great angst. Why can't you just be gay, without declaring this to be part of a 'frum' lifestyle?! Be 'frum' - as everybody else is, with all the particular aveiros which they do privately - but don't make being gay kosher and part of frumkeit.
This is all if you want to adhere to Orthodox Yiddishkeit. Again, you are free to do any type of Yiddishkeit you like, but Orthodoxy will never allow true frumkeit with 'gay'.
Good luck to you. You are a true and brave person!