Anyone that knows me, knows this: I wear my heart on my sleeve, and follow my emotions. My heart tells me where to go, what to do - because suppressing that is no way to live. Even if my brain contradicts.
Lately there has been a lot of people trying to understand more about homosexuality and religion, why a gay person has to come out, and why I did come out. Here's something I wrote in a very vulnerable state, while contemplating the meaning of sexuality and religion. (ie- after watching "Prayers for Bobby"):
i didnt come out to announce to the world or to parade my lifestyle or to tell every other jewish struggling kid to come out. i came out for myself. so i could finally stop hiding. its not fun to always be telling everyone "oh im not ready to date" or "im not looking to get married yet". Eventually they get it, and they all talk and wonder whats wrong with me.
I came out to tell the world there is nothing wrong with me. they can stop wondering and judging, im gay. so im not the same as them but again, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. by keeping it in, im admitting that it's something shameful. im admitting its something never to tell anyone about b/c it's not "normal". well that's not a way to live. Even by just telling a few friends, that's acting as though its an embarrassment. its not. its just part of me.
the more ppl like me and my friends come out (shout out JQY), the more ppl understand that theres nothing wrong with us. that maybe the actions are shunned by the torah, but that doesnt change the desires we have. and maybe if ppl begin to see and hear that this "way of life" is just like everyone else with a few exceptions, maybe then less kids will be hurt or hurt themselves growing up knowing b/c they will finally know that they are not alone. and that time has come to be okay and for the world to understand we're just like everyone else.
to say "there's nothing wrong with us" is anti-torah. A man who has immoral relations with another man has greater punishment than a man who has immoral relations with a woman because it is considered an unnormal toeva!!
ReplyDeletePeople who are gay need psycological help to come out straight. That's all there is. It's people like you who are looking to get answers they only want to hear!
The problem is that America is so liberal that anything goes!
Musicluver,
ReplyDeleteif that's all there was, just psychological help to come out straight, YOU REALLY THINK WE WOULD STRUGGLE SO MUCH? you really think we would attempt suicide and go into major depressions? you clearly have very little understanding of the issue and I ask you to open your mind again before commenting on this blog. thank you.
Amen Musicluver!!!!
ReplyDeletei did not say being a practicing gay was okay. In fact, earlier on this blog, I have said numerous times it is NOT okay and Assur. But again, thank for another close-minded comment- please read my blog and know who i am before judging me.
ReplyDeletemusiclover, i believe you're the one who is in need of "psycological help" for being so closed minded. grow up and welcome to 2010.
ReplyDeleteYou also might to pull the stick out of YOUR ass. it might make life easier.
have a good day :)
Anti-people-who-think-there's-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-PRACTICING-gay
ReplyDeleteyes, as people there is nothing wrong with who we are. there may be a Halachick issue with one desire we have, but there is nothing wrong with who we are. Oh, and I'm sure all your desires and life is perfect, free from all sins, because if not, then there's something wrong with who you are.
I think it's important to remember that, above all else, we as Jews have an obligation to be an empathetic nation. The trials and struggles of other people are not for us to judge. There is one Judge and, last time I checked, He prefers not to post comments on blogs. We should not compromise our beliefs, this is true, but the author of this site has not asked that of anyone. All he asks for is understanding and compassion. That is all most people in similar situations ask for. It is appalling that anyone has had to ask even once and that the Torah's view on this has been ignored. But to make someone ask multiple times and then to still refuse to listen?! Have we learned nothing from Job's friends?
ReplyDeleteI can think of only 2 reasons why Musicluver would be viewing your blog...(1)an outlet for hatred and close-mindedness or (2)musicluver is also searching and struggling with sexuality and finds that denouncing that which is enticing or intriguing is easier than having an open honest heart about it...Good luck to you FrumGay
ReplyDeleteAn open, honest heart knows that what you say is true: there really is nothing wrong with you. Your truth is as valid as any heterosexuals'. They just happen to be in the majority.
ReplyDeleteYet, this is Gd's world and the relationship between man and wife, as opposed to those who simply adopt those titles and/or roles, is a pretaste of the World to Come. U-b'motam lo nifradu. It doesn't say that about gay couples, or maybe it does if they're headed towards the celestial sauna.
Everyone needs teshuvah, gay, straight, ambi. Without it, we have no chelek in olam haba, no chance to really understand what life is all about. It's not only in the here and now.
The close minded are playing it safe. If they're straight, they can't relate. If not, they're also scared of losing everything, not just growing up different, having the same rights as everybody else, the same feelings towards other people straights enjoy.
You're a very good person for this cause, for the roshei yeshiva to have to speak to because you're sincere, make sense, and are very real. You know your heart and how others have hurt you. Speaking up for everybody else like you, you are very brave.
Ely, stop posing as "anonymous" to back yorself up. You're bad at it.
ReplyDeleteAnti-people-who-think-there's-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-PRACTICING-gay said-
ReplyDeleteYOURE A DOUCHE. and if I knew who you were, to have the gall to use my name, at least put your own. I'm sorry if it's hard for you to believe that people out there actually support me and are willing to understand my struggle, but don't attack me. I hope we are not friends in the real world- off the blogger.
there is nothing wrong with a person having a ta'avah, but there is something wrong with the ta'avah. there is nothing wrong with a person who has kleptomania, but there is something wrong with wanting to steal. There is nothing wrong with a person who has homosexual tendencies but there is something wrong with homosexuality.
ReplyDeleteEverything I said before is true as long as the person recognizes he has a ta'avah, admits it's a yeitzer haraha and a bad thing (whether it was his fault or not, genetic or not), and keeps on fighting it (whether there is a known cure or not). Once the person fools himself into thinking there is nothing wrong with the ta'avah (as long as it's not acted on), then there is something wrong with the person. That's a sign of giving up, and that's not acceptable.
and a side point, i don't like people rejecting a comparison between homosexuality and adultary or kleptomania because one has a victim and one doesn't. Obviously the Torah knew that and still said they are all wrong. Saying one has a victim while the other doesn't is just a rationalizing based on modern secular morals to make one feel better about his "victim-less" ta'avah.
anon 1:36, I'm not sure who you are- but the Judaism- I forget which Gemara exactly, holds there is no Aveirah in thought, just in action. The Taavah is not approved of, but there is no Issur until a sin is committed.
ReplyDeleteTo "Anti-people-who-think-there's-nothing-wrong-with-being-a-PRACTICING-gay said..." and to "Musicluver":
ReplyDeleteIt's unfortunate to see that somehow you have the ability, or to be more precise, the nerve and audacity to express your closed minded ignorant opinions on a public forum.
Do you even know the Halachic aspects about Homosexuality? Have you ever once bothered to learn a little more then just what it says in Vayikra? Because like were taught, everything in Torah can have a thousand meanings.
I have no interest in discussing Halacha here, as well I have no interest in actually justifying myself or who I am to either of you. However I feel it is imperative that I ask you these questions. How can you actually justify talking with such hatred towards your fellow Jew? What gives you the right to judge another human being? If your gonna tell me that the Torah gives you that right, your wrong. The commandment to love your fellow jew is written in the same Parsha that speaks about Homosexuality. When seeing the context of your comments to this blog I can safely say that is NOT going according to Torah guidelines.
Before you decide to promote your views on what is right and wrong in your eyes, just think, and remember, you are not the only person in this world, there are others besides for you, and just like every human being we have feelings.
I spent 5 years in therapy since the age of 15 doing everything I can to deny the fact that I am gay. I can tell you that I know for me it did not work. Not only did it not work, it only caused much more severe mental health issues. This is proven to be the case for many others who engage in "therapies" to change their orientation.
So, if you have a better alternative for us, besides for being sent to the fires of hell, please keep your ignorant hateful comments to yourself.
At least Ely has the courage to publicly declare who he is and stand up for the rights of people like us, where you can't even give your real name. So think, think long and hard before you decide to hurt someone else's feelings, because if you do, then your breaking Halacha just as much as we "supposedly" are.
Frumgay (if that is your real name)
ReplyDeleteyou don't get the same aveirah if you intend to do a crime and fail, then if you actually succeed. You can't be punished for a crime of thought but you can for deed. That doesn't mean however that we don't have laws regulating our thoughts.
For example: in this weeks parshah Moshe didn't hit the water to show hakaras hatov to it. who cares? water doesn't feel! one answer is is that hakaras hatov is not only for the benefit of the recipient, but the giver himself has to want to give hakaras hatov regardless if there is a recipient or not.
The Torah doesn't only teach us what physical actions to do, but also what are proper things to think and feel. we should want to give hakaras hatov, we shouldn't want to steal, and we shouldn't want to kill, whether or not there's an action to back it up. Along those lines we shouldn't want to have homosexual relationships. I know "but G-d gave it to me." I just don't think that's an excuse. G-d gave us challenegs that we have to overcome. G-d made people want to steal and kill and do all sorts of horrible things, but they're supposed to respond to that challenge and overcome. They are supposed to cease from acting on it, and cease (or at least try until the day they die until 120) to stop desiring it as well.
(by the way this is still anon 1:36 so you can refer me to that if you want to, to avoid confusion. i just don't know how to do the whole cool name thing, im new at the blogging world)
anon 1:36
ReplyDeletebut let me ask you this, is a blind man required to be able to see again? is a deaf man obligated to hear again so he can be yotzei shofar? No. They are given a challenge and expected to do the best they can with it, I believe I fall into the same category.
Further, I will not deny the Torah is a code for a way of life and recommends certain things that it may not outright state, but again there is no inherit SIN in not keeping to those "guidelines."
Lastly, until there is a better solution than the reparative therapy that works for so few and causes significant mental and emotional damage, homosexuality is part of me. And I do not discuss acting on it on this blog. The Halacha is clear on that. I believe we both agree on this.
Ehhh, I shouldn't be piping up, but this is the third time I've found myself reading the comments, so I guess I might as well through in my two cents.
ReplyDeleteYes, musiclover and Anti are expressing closed minded views. Yes, the majority of people here disagree with them.
But that doesn't make their views something that should be surpressed, or indeed insulted. Doing so does nothing more than support their opinions, because rather than adressing their statements intellectually means that they have a point which can not be disputed rationally. Obviously, people think the idea of homosexuallity as a choice and the like can be disputed, and thus we have debate.
That being said, ad hom arguements completely destory intellectual honesty. To this point, Anti broke the chain of curteous discussion when he accused Ely of writing as annyonomus to support his own opinions. In fact, for this reason alone I am writing with my name, just to discount any claims of Anti.
Now, to get to my actual point here - I encourage what Ely is doing, even if I disagree with him on a couple of issues. Fundamentally, he has the right idea - to show the struggle of being gay and jewish (no, I won't use the word frum because it has no single defintion and therefore meaningless). Whether he supports practicing homosexuality or denounces it is irrelevant to the point - it's having the blog in the first place, and advertising it that accomplishes what he is setting out to do.
Now, I don't feel the need to address MusicLuver's points of acqusation, not because I can not dispute him (for the record, Eshet Eish is -also- an act of toev'ah... so ya) but because it is not the purpose of this forum. If he wishes to argue intellectually on the subject in the appropriate forum, I will gladly continue such a discussion with him there.
To make an actual comment now - I don't think I agree with the concept of people coming out leading to acceptance. That "there is nothing wrong with us" in still a very open discussion. Do we think there is nothing wrong with people who have OCD? Or other mild form's of psychological disorders? On the average, I think people agree there is nothing "wrong" with it, but think that the person who has the condition is slightly off kilter.
Obviously with homosexuality it's a whole other point of why it's "wrong", whatever reasons people wish to supply. But I repeat - I don't think people coming out will lead to acceptance. Acceptance results from habituation, true. And certainly if it become a normal habit for people to come out, people might just learn to accept it. But I think it calls for more than just people "coming out" or blogs like this one. These are nice first steps, yes, and will hopefully lead us down a road to acceptance. Yet I feel that acceptance will result in the jewish community only once the non-jewish world also accepts this. As sad as that may sound, it does seem to have a historical precedences.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
To all those bashing Music and Anti... dont just call it close-mindedness because people don't agree with you and have wrong oppinions. To Music and Anti... theres a way to come off childish and inencere, and theres a way to come off thoughtful and insightful. Don't write blatantly offensive comments. If you have an opinion express it in a proper manner...... Now, I beleive that acting upon homosexuality is wrong (as Frumgay does too), but the struggles that frum gay men go through I cannot begin to fathom so I refuse to part of a group that ridicules gay men and tells them that they are psychologically unfit. However, I also refuse to give any support. I didnt attend the panel at YU and I am appalled that it was so well attended. I understand that there is this problem, and that there should be some support system discreetly set up for people who feel that they are having issues, but did this topic really have to be discussed in the open public of the Orthodox Jewsih Community?
ReplyDeleteANON 2:10-
ReplyDeleteThis forum was discussed not simply for the other gay individuals out there struggling, but to show the Orthodox community the hatred and intolerance hurt, and some of the things the four brave panelists went through growing up are forms of hate that no one should ever have to go through. And that's why it needed to be a public forum, so other people in the Orthodox community can learn from the mistakes that were made to the panelists and hopefully avoid such trauma in the future.
1) i think that anoalogy is weak because there is no sin in being deaf or blind. in fact, there probably is something wrong with not even wanting to fulfill those mitzvos, and if there is a cure (like glasses or hearing aid) he probably is expected to get it.
ReplyDelete2) whether there is a sin or not is irrelevant because the Torah is not just about plusses and minuses, it's about a way of life which this is a violation of. plus the Torah does command us to be holy (kedoshim tihiyu) which seems to go beyond the actual actions of sin (for example Rashi explains that it means to be separated from sexual immorality which doesn't mean just not commiting the crime because the Torah already commanded us about that, I think the Ramban says not to be a naval birshus hatorah like being a glutton with kosher food even though no actual sin is commited, we're supposed to go beyond the plusses and minuses of actual sins)
3) if you want to go on to practical halachah i think this attitude has extreme halachik ramifications. I chas veshalom accuse you of anything but an attitude like there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and it should be accepted will INEVITABLY lead to people violating the act. whether with rationalizations of "G-d obviously didn't command us to do something that goes against a natural and "nothing wrong with it feeling"" or "G-d obviously doesn't expect me to keep it because it's so hard" or "i know its wrong but what the heck" or any other type of rationalization. I believe you that you are honest and genuine, but unfortunately there are people with your attitude who aren't so strong and this could lead to actual violation even though you never tried to rationalize the act itself. I think this third reason is enough by itself to rethink this ideology if only to save other people from using it as a crutch to help then sin.
(still anon 1:36)
Anon (1:36 and 2:00):
ReplyDeleteWhat you are talking about here is conscious thought. The main issue isn't that, it's the built-in desire. Those are two separate issues. Everyone has built-in desires that are not allowed by the Torah, and everyone has to fight those desires whatever they may be. What makes a homosexual Jew stand out is that their desire is looked down upon by society more than someone who has the desire to steal for instance. If someone has a powerful inclination to steal, but fights it and does not steal, I think they get more reward for that from G-d than someone who has no inclination to steal in the first place. Same goes for homosexuals - I believe for every second a homosexual Jew does not commit any forbidden act, they get thousandfold the reward that I would get in the same situation. What people need to understand is that the desire is not a halachik problem, and until someone actually acts upon it, there is no moral or ethical reason to look down on them or exclude them from society - if anything, they should be applauded.
And just on another note - where in the Torah does it say "A man must not desire to lay with another man" or "One must not desire to steal"? All it says is "Do not", which clearly refers to action. You can't bring hakarat hatov as an example, because that happens to be a commandment which has a specific mental aspect in its very nature, it's not the same as homosexuality.
ANON 1:36
ReplyDeleteI agree with a lot of the things you say, about lifestyle and Halachik guidelines and a Torah way of life. BUT With that in mind, if one does not follow the "spirit of the law" by accepting their homosexual tendencies in order for emotional stability and balance, DOES one deserve to be hurt and ostracized by the community? I would say no. And the fact that we are is the reason I write this blog.
Also Anon 1:36, you say the analogy is weak b/c there is no sin in being deaf and blind. There is also no sin in being homosexual (although you may be debating that, which you have the right to do , although I do not agree).
ReplyDeletei don't want to comment specifically about being ostracized however i don't think a person saying "i want to kill people but i never will" in public is really an upstanding person in a community and it's not just because people are afraid of him. a person admitting he has a desire for a very serious sin and saying there's nothing wrong with that desire is problematic for a community to deal with. Whether that sin is murder, stealing, homosexuality, incest, beastialitym you name it. whether it has a victim or not.
ReplyDeletelet me rephrase the other point. homosexuality is by definiton a desire to do a sin. blindness and deafness are not desires to sin but rather external physical defects.
(still anon 1:36)
From my minimal understanding of hashkafa and yiddishkeit... we are all born with a very tremendously overpowering yetzer hora! My yetzer hora is for pork ribs that I used to eat once upon a time... my yetzer hora is to watch pornography and to gratify my animalstic sexual drive. I dont publicize it in panels or to friends but its something I live with every day. The author of the blog tries to portray that homosexuality is one of the things that he deals with on a constant basis like ANYONE ELSE DEALS WITH THEIR yetzer horas. The difference here, which can be and is heavily debated is whether or not it IS who he is. Regardless... if coming out to people gives him an out to positively express himself and help others going through the same struggle than ALL THE POWER TO YOU ELY! Ely is not advocating a lifestyle that goes against the torah. Ely is not telling people that they should act one way or another... he is simply trying to give us on the outside a glimpse into his heavy heart and the issues he deals with every single moment of his life and will continue to deal with no matter where this path takes him. The last thing anyone should do is insult Ely for the battle that he goes through which he chose to make public. Getting to know him a little has shown that his actions are extremely thought out and even though I may strongly disagree with him at times, his passion for justice and emes are the guiding principles that lead him in life.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of whether or not we agree with Ely, those who disagree should do so with the utmost respect for someone who is not afraid to fight for himself and for others and show that he is as normal as any of us... just with a different yetzer hora
Frum Gay, while I understand your predicament in terms of the ostracism, whatever is brought to the public is fair-game. You should have realized this especially with such a controversial subject.
ReplyDeleteI am the anonymous who spoke in defense of frumgay and I am supportive of every Jew.
ReplyDeleteI rather suspect Hashem uses this desire as an ultimate test. Whether or not we agree with Gibbon, who posited that this was the downfall of Rome, the fact remains that homosexuality is associated with the culture of Greece, their idols extoling human beauty. When Jews are tempted by the same lure, we are tested.
Nobody gets straight A's, but better half a loaf than none. Too many frum gays have felt compelled to leave Yiddishkayt because of social strictures. If that can change, it's a positive development. Al tadin ad shetagia limkomo.At the same time, those who are tested must try to pass.
I hope frum gay speaks with Rav Schachter because his point of view is important in the Orthodox world. If you can sensitize him by convincing him of your and others sincerity, he will listen.
ReplyDeleteAren't Jews not supposed to judge? So how can Music and Anti come on this blog and judge someone for how he lives his life? Agree with him or not, be respectful.
ReplyDeleteJust want to say to the comment at 1:15 PM (I'm not using your name bc it's too long and stupid) - I wrote the comment at 11:42 AM and I stand by it. I take the act and art of writing very seriously and I would prefer if you wouldn't credit my words to someone else until you are certain. I would imagine that all the other authors of anonymous posts here would agree. It's presumptuous and, in this case, very wrong.
ReplyDeleteI do not understand what the purpose of this entire commenting conversation is. Regardless of all of your opinions on homosexuality, isn't the Torah exceptionally clear on the issue of judging others. I believe that we can all agree that this is definitely NOT ALLOWED. This blog appears to be an excellent way to promote understanding and decrease the judgement present within the Jewish community of certain groups of "different" people. However, many of you are using it as another outlet to judge and hate. The second beit hamikdash was destroyed because the Jewish people divided themselves, judged eachother, and came to dislike eachother. We all want to bring the Mashiach. So, PLEASE!!! I urge all of you to just worry about your own shtick and get your noses out of other people's business. What benefit could there possibly be in judging and hating?
ReplyDeleteI didn't read through all the posts so maybe this has already been said. For the sake of my comment, let's put aside the halachik argument and say that it is 100% halachically assur to practice homsexual relations. I think that FrumGay has clearly established that he agrees with this. I am not looking at the pesukim right now, but I'd like to toss something out there. Having homosexual feelings is not realy assur. It is, but on the same level of not wanting to have relationships with a woman in niddah- guard your thoughts, do not act on your ta'avot (not to be confused with toevot). With that in mind, let's take a look at THE yehareg v'al ya'avor- good old avoda zara. No questions asked, this is a no-no. There is no sin worse than worshipping other "gods." Yet, Bnei Israel practiced this over and over again (and were very clearly punished for it). The act itself is a toevah, but the desire is clearly a natural desire to do it- DESPITE THE FACT THAT G-D HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS NOT THE WAY OF THE WORLD.My point is, yes, being gay might not be the proper way of the world. Nature (and G-d who created it) intends for man and woma to be together (evidenced not only by His words but the fact that only man and woman can procreate). But this does not mean that the desire is necessarily not natural. I think that it is very possible for there to be a natural homosexual desire in many people, the question is what is done with it. Homosexual Jews clearly feel this desire in a more intense fashion than others, which I believe to be a natural feeling, but it is a hard desire for them to fight. Is there something wrong with them naturally? No. They just have a harder time controlling that desire. As FrumGay said before, someone who has all his desires in check has something wrong with him. B'Kitzur, homosexuals doe not have anything wrong with them naturally, they just have bigger challenge with controlling their natural desires. As long as one tries to make an effort, or at least acknowledges the fact that their actions are assur, why should we ostracize them and alienate them? I don't see anyone here attacking niddah violators or mesarvei get or other sins that the sinner might even feel justified in committing. At least here, FrumGay and his friends understand the problem and try to somehow deal with it. Stay strong brother!
ReplyDeleteYoni-
ReplyDeleteI'm not 100% sure if I understand you. How do you determine what's a natural desire? It seems from both a Torah and a biological standpoint that homosexuality is not a natural desire. The Torah not only says the act is assur but calls it a to'eivah, which seems to be saying that not only is the action forbidden but there's an attitude we're supposed to have towards the act as well. I mean, why would a natural desire be considered an abomination? Why not just say it's assur?
Biologically speaking the human body was not made for that (as you said). Why is a desire for something unnatural called natural?
And also, if you say that homosexuality is a natural desire, where do you draw the line? is wanting to murder or steal natural? (and please don't tell me that the fact that murder harms someone makes it unnatural. Animals kill each other all the time and is that unnatural?) What if having a desire for murder, stealing, or homosexuality is genetic? Does that make it natural?
and what exactly do you been my natural? Does natural mean it's okay to have those feelings as long as you don't act on it (which would mean that if you agree that a desire to murder is natural, there's nothing wrong with wanting to kill people)?
It seems that you are so sure about a point (that homosexuality is a "natural" desire), and you bring in all the counter arguements without explaining why theyre wrong to strengthen your point.
Yoni knows he's a good friend and Frumgays know they have friends, especially in liberal circles.
ReplyDeleteThey do.
This is natural.
homosexuality is both a test for those struggling with it and for those not faced with such desires as to how they will treat those who do face such an awesome challenge.
ReplyDeleteso funny how frum jews sound almost exactly like fundamentalist muslems and christians when it comes to these issues...
ReplyDeleteI have a feeling that most of the commentators are quite young.
ReplyDeleteYou speak with learning that is taught in the classroom.
Ely has probably experienced more "life" than many of you because he is learing to control his desires.
I hate to use that phrase "walk a mile in my shoes" but it is easy for those who haven't experienced a powerful need that has been labeled wrong to truly know what this young man is going through.
I also notice that the sexual feelings of women for other women has not been mentioned.
This is also a state that would not lead to "procreation" -- the "natural" way.
If the only reason that man and woman were to engage in sexual relationships was to procreate, would you dare to state that those couples who are unable to bear children should divorce or never have sexual relationships with each other?
I am probably more than three times the age of most of you and I have lived through hateful situations personally -- not sexual ones, but antisemitic ones.
How do you think I feel when young Jews who should look upon each other with love and understanding spew forth such hatred and ignorance?
I feel ashamed of you for bearing such disgust and indgination. I was taught that to be a Jew was to be compassionate.
Do you truly think that Hitler would have spared you because you were a straight Jew?
Do you think that any of the people would have asked what your sexual inclination was before they condemned you to death?
Grow, children.
Show love and not hatred or we will trul disappear from the Earth.
And perhaps you can label my post Anon at 9:06am and an old lady!
ReplyDeleteanon 9:06
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, if you are only referring to the people who are actually spewing hatred, then I agree 100% with you, "ve'ahavta lerei'achah kamochah". But if you are referring to all people who are being critical of the homosexual action or desire, then that's not hatred. Just like you are criticizing people on this blog for their actions but you are not expressing any hatred, so are many people on this blog expressing criticism for homosexuality but not hatred for the person (as I hope that's what I was doing as anon 1:36). Please don't mistake criticism for hatred.
To Anon 1:36 from Anon 9:06 old lady
ReplyDeleteOf course I wouldn't say everyone who criticizes someone expresses hatred. But maybe I discern a tone to comments that isn't there.
It is difficult, after all, to *hear* how someone speaks what they write. I can only judge by what I see/read.
If someone writes:
"Frum Gay (If that is your real name)", I tend to see a tone of disdain at the very least and the very reason why so many Orthodox gay and lesbian young people hide their identity.
There remains to be seen the difference between some one who wishes/thinks to rape his neighbor -- an evil deed -- and someone who thinks -- I wish I could show my love for that person, though I know it is wrong.
And, I see that rather than focus on this part of my comment:
"that the sexual feelings of women for other women has not been mentioned.
This is also a state that would not lead to "procreation" -- the "natural" way.
If the only reason that man and woman were to engage in sexual relationships was to procreate, would you dare to state that those couples who are unable to bear children should divorce or never have sexual relationships with each other?"
You choose to ignore it.
I am curious why the focus is only on frum gay men and not frum lesbians.
Perhaps because there is no preconceived response and a person will have to make up their own opinion?
I am not as learned as most of the young people who comment here and I respect their learning. But learning is less than nothing if it does not lead one to think for themselves.
For the record, when I said Frumgay (if that is your real name), I meant it completely as a joke because obviously frumgay is not his real name. I meant it to break the ice and show there is absolutely no hatred, i apologize if that was unclear.
ReplyDeleteAnd just to set the record straight, the reason there is a problem with homosexual activity is not because they can't procreate. It is because the Torah says it's a sin, and a very serious one at that (R' Moshe Feinstein actually writes that in a teshivah). If we try and give our own reasons to the Torah it can lead to serious problems (as with Shlomoh HaMelech who violated some serious sins when he thought he knew the reason). There is no sin anywhere that a childless couple can't have relations, so there isn't really a comparison.
Again, I did not mean any hatred chas veshalom in any of my comments. I look at the author of this blog with a tremendous amount of respect. He has battles that I thank G-d that I don't have to deal with. I do not think that I am a better Jew then him because he has homosexual desires and I don't. We all have challeneges and should chas veshalom be looked down on because of them. That being said, that doesn't mean I can't try and comment on his approach to dealing with it from a halchick and Torah viewpoint.