Hey- so to answer some of your complaints, again, complaints, I've written about JONAH in the past. That's why I will not do it again. One of the many times I've written about them was HERE. So I'm not going to address it again. At least not right now. But what I am going to address again- gay men marrying women.
Gay men marrying straight women or gay men marrying gay women, or women anywhere in between, is wrong. And it rarely works. And here's why it bothers me so much- every day, and if not every day than every other day, I get an email, or a Facebook message or some form of contact from men, married to women. What do they want? Well, depends. Some want support, which I am happy to offer. Some want advice, which I also am happy to offer. Some want a physical relationship or sex (which I turn down), but the point is that these are men, who married women because they thought it would just get better, they thought they're attraction would go away or that they could just ignore it, and if they married a woman their lives would just get better.
The advice I give? To be open with your wife about this, if you find yourself married and struggling. Because at least then the two partners can be open in their relationship and discuss possible options. I feel that's the only way for a man having homosexual attraction to at least not feel so alone- if they are open with their spouse about it. I never asked to be the one for everyone to come to with these "problems" or "confusions", but I did put myself out here, on a blog. And for that reason people do come to me, and I have to do suggest what I think is best, mostly because there is no one else. And because so many of these people come from communities that would never consider discussing sexuality, when it stares them in the face on TV and the internet and the news every day. So they look for somewhere to go, and they find me. So I have to do the best I can, and I make sure they know that life isn't over and that there are options.
Now I'm sure there are women that marry men, as well, for the same reasons- but I haven't heard from them. I just know that I need to reinforce something I have always said- that gay or confused/questioning men, should not marry women. I say confused and questioning because very often, those are the first steps to much deeper sexual orientation that can't simply be ignored. I'm not saying run around and sleep with everyone to figure it out- but before you rush into marriage to fix the problem, make sure you are fully aware of where your brain, body and heart is at. Otherwise too many people end up hurt.
Well said, Ely :) You should be proud of all the help you've given, whether it's face-to-face, message-to-message, or blog-to-reader.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying run around and sleep with everyone to figure it out
ReplyDeleteActually, I think the taboo against premarital sex does contribute to this problem. People -- even straight people -- should have themselves sorted out sexually before getting married. They should especially have a sexual relationship with the person they are marrying to make sure they're compatible, etc. But what do I know, I'm just a kofer.
Do you counsel people on what has worked for YOU or what you think would work for THEM?
ReplyDeleteI don't ever tell people what to do, I suggest or offer advice in what I feel is best for them, as anyone training for social work would.
ReplyDeleteIf I was stuck in a marriage, I would get divorced, for example. But I don't tell them that.
Ely, I think it's awesome that you're giving a voice of reason in a world that would prefer to hide from certain truths.
ReplyDeleteI am a therapist in the Ultra-Orthodox community, and it scares me when I think of how many colleagues of mine are 'proud' of their success stories of gay men who married to women. I think that notion comes from the misconception that the chuppah is the 'finish line' of dating, and as long as you can survive through the dating then you're okay. Really, I would argue that the Chuppah is the starting line, and dating? Well that's just the warmup. Marriage is the marathon, and the same way you wouldn't run a race if you had no sneakers and really wished you were biking, it's ridiculous to believe that a gay man will be 'rehabillitated' by marrying a woman.
I just wanted to clarify one point you made.
"The advice I give? To be open with your wife about this, if you find yourself married and struggling. Because at least then the two partners can be open in their relationship and discuss possible options. I feel that's the only way for a man having homosexual attraction to at least not feel so alone- if they are open with their spouse about it."
I am sure you are aware that once a gay man tells his wife about his orientation, there will probably be feelings of pain and betrayal and and even hatred. I am not advocating that he continue on his marriage 'pretending', but I am emphasizing that the point of sharing with his spouse is not so that he no longer feels alone, but because he recognizes that he can't go on living a lie to himself and his wife. Chances are, she's probably suspected something was off and blamed it on herself for being inadequate in some way. Either way, it's important to keep in mind that one should be prepared for ALL possible options, and that as a woman, to hear such information from the person you married can be the most devastating blow-- ESPECIALLY if he shares that he has suspicions about his sexuality before he married her.
Keep giving people the real truth Ely, you're very brave.
Dear Ely,
ReplyDeleteI am a regular reader of your blog, and when it first started I totally supported you and everything that you are trying to do. It seems, though, that the blog has grown into something bigger than just one man telling his story. This blog has become a well of knowledge for people searching for the answer, and coming to you for those answers. I just have a few questions about your recent post.
Firstly, I don’t understand how you could get upset at people questioning your personal life but have no problem disclosing personal information about other people. We may not know who these people are, but did we really need to know that part of your life? Additionally, it seems like you avoided answering the question of whether you accepted those married men’s offer or not. You could have simply answered in the blog: "when someone makes me a sexual offer, I politely decline and tell them there are other ways to go about it." I find it interesting that after facing recent fire on this very issue, you didn't seize on an opportunity to clear some of the air.
Secondly, I am a professional psychologist and have been working with troubled teens for years. You pride yourself on your social work studies and yet it seems you have forgotten one of the most fundamental principles in counseling- its ok to say, “I do not know the answer”. We learn as professionals that there will be scenarios or cases that we just do not understand.
When these situations arise we are taught not to be the hero and not to pretend like we know what they are going through. I would never willingly offer counsel to someone grieving over a parent when both of mine are still living. You are not married, and your viewpoint is not to get married if you are a homosexual, therefore you shouldn’t be offering advice to people who are.
You said yourself, “So they look for somewhere to go, and they find me. So I have to do the best I can, and I make sure they know that life isn't over and that there are options.” Honestly from one professional to another the best thing you can do is hand them over to someone who really understands what they are going through.
Don’t be afraid to say I don’t know. Don’t be afraid to say I cant help you.
I am looking forward to your response.
Peter- I corrected the first point, I turn down their offers for sex, I just don't like to address that on the blog, who I do or do not have sex with or what sexual acts I do or do not do, but no I do not have any type of sex with married men.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, "I do not know the answer" applies to myself, and many others struggling with religion and sexuality. However, when someone reaches out to you, Peter, as a psychologist, crying out of desperation and you are the only source they have ever found and the only person they have ever expressed their "troubles" to, to respond "I don't know" is seemingly cold, and defeats the purpose of my being here for them. I do say - I do not know what is best for you, or I do not have the answers to religion and sexuality- because no one does, but I do not just reply to these men "I don't know".
Peter, I do not know if you a religious person at all, but in the Jewish community, and in particular the Ultra-Orthodox community, these men are more likely to look for random sex or to reach out to a stranger form a blog then they are to seek professional help. It seems that you don't realize the reason these men face this issue is because they have never, and most likely will never admit what they are actually dealing with- being gay. They will pretend to go on as if their attractions don't exist, while contracting diseases from anonymous sex and spreading it to their wives (yes, I know of cases like this). And therefore, the one time they reach out to me, I suggest whatever I can to alleviate their situation.
I do not try to be the hero, I do not ask for them to come to me, but when they do, I can't just say "I don't know, go see a psychologist". That's why I'm pursuing some form of degree, so maybe, unlike the "life coaches" at JONAH, my few words of support will come with a bit more professionalism and true degree.
Hope I was able to adequately address your concerns.
Dear Ely,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for clarifying the first point. I do appreciate your honest and open response.
In regards to the second point, and I really do not mean this in any negative way, but you sound like any first or second year grad student. There is a certain maturity and mentality that comes with experience. When answering someone, “I don’t know” it is not a cold response at all. In fact the client is usually respectful of you for being honest with them after they have been so honest with you. I guess I should’ve been more clear on this point. Your answer is not just, “I don’t know” you answer is, “Honestly I do not know what you are going through, but maybe together we can find someone who can relate”.
We as psychologists understand that we as individuals cannot answer every single question brought to our attention. That is why we create a support group for ourselves. We help each other out in those sticky situations. We all have had different backgrounds and different experiences in life that help us out with our clients. When you have never been through a marriage, it is hard to give advice to someone who has.
You are correct that your response should not seem cold. The person confiding in you should have a respect and trust in you that what you truly want is what’s best for them. Once they have this trust and respect they will be happy to hear a response of “I don’t know”.
I think that you have it in your power to be a perfect middleman, a means to a proper end.
"I suggest or offer advice in what I feel is best for them, as anyone training for social work would."
ReplyDeletePerhaps with more training you'll come to understand that its not about offering advice in what YOU feel is best for them, but rather to assist THEM figure out for themselves.
Not sure if you're dealing with these calls primarily as a gay person or as a social worker in-training, but you need to be cognizant of that balance when you're advising people in such vulnerable positions.
Dan, As I have elaborated in earlier comments I do speak to them to help figure out what's best for THEM, not what was best for me or what I think is best for them. that's not how it works.
ReplyDeleteDear Peter,
ReplyDeleteI am a little surprised by your comment. I understand that as a psychologist one of your main goals is to guide your client. However, as an experienced psychologist who may have dealt with this in the past, I imagine you have seen the devastating consequences of a gay individual marrying someone they are not attracted too (or at the very least even a straight person being married to someone they are not attracted to or love…possibly the parents of some of the teens you counsel). As a psychologist you have a responsibility to your client. However, if you fail to give proper guidance you have failed as a psychologist.
If a client came to you and was about to do something self-destructive I hope you would discuss and guide him or her to make the correct decision and avoid that behavior (obviously not judge your client if the wrong decision is made). Even more so if a client is about to do something that has the potential to hurt countless of people I would hope you would guide him or her away from that.
The reality is what Ely said “Gay men marrying straight women or gay men marrying gay women, or women anywhere in between, is wrong. And it rarely works" is 100 percent accurate, especially if that individual does not disclose his orientation to the person that he or she is marrying. You keep saying that’s it ok to say “I don’t know” yet we do know. In fact your logic to why Ely shouldn’t be giving this advice is downright bizarre. Your example that “I would never willingly offer counsel to someone grieving over a parent when both of mine are still living” is very surprising to me. I hope that you went to a graduate program that would give you the training and tools to give therapy for a wide variety of issues. According to your logic I would have to assume that since you deal with troubled teens you were a troubled teen. Am I also to assume that a psychologist who deals with drug abuse must be a recovering addict otherwise he or she will be forced to answer “I just dont know” let’s find someone who does, to every question. I would imagine even if you do relate to the teens you counsel, every situation is different. So where do you draw the line in what your qualified or unqualified to answer…..
In addition, looking at how you answered Ely, I just feel like you have failed to see his struggle and the gay orthodox community’s struggles as a whole. Like I said before, you would never tell a straight person to marry someone they didn’t love and or weren’t attracted to. Even so, Ely is a knowledgeable person on this topic, he is guy you would tell your client to go meet when you say let’s find someone who can relate. Ya, he is against this type of marriage, but that’s because at the very best it leads to a marriage without love and at the very worst it destroys countess lives. Correct me if I am wrong Ely but I am assuming there was a point in your life where you thought about just marrying a girl just to fit in. I am assuming after a long struggle you came to the conclusion that this would not only be detrimental to you but to your potential spouse, children etc. Therefore, I really do not understand why you say Ely is not the right person to comment about this; it seems that over and over he has proven to be someone that individuals struggling with being gay , Jewish, orthodox etc can go to and get REAL advice from. The individuals that read Ely’s blog already know that because of him “ that life isn't over and that there are options “and he continues to correctly do so in this blog post. Therefore, from one professional to another, you should probably stick to teen counseling.(Ya, you’re not the only one who can make condescending comments)
----Ben
Ely never stop, dont let fools get in your way! Keep going and going you are a help and inspiration to so many
ReplyDelete